Certificates of no impediment for same-sex couples; same-sex marriage conscience vote; AFP protectio
TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW WITH ADAM SPENCER, ABC 702 SYDNEY – 27 JANUARY 2012
THE HON NICOLA ROXON MP
Attorney-General
TOPICS: Certificates of no impediment for same-sex couples; same-sex marriage conscience vote; AFP protection of Prime Minister and Mr Abbott
ADAM SPENCER: If only I had the Federal Attorney-General I’d ask these questions of. Well, I do, because she’s on the line for a separate issue, but we will also get to talking about yesterday’s incident. The Federal Attorney General is Nicola Roxon and she joins us now. Thanks a lot for your time, Attorney-General.
NICOLA ROXON: Good morning.
ADAM SPENCER: I actually want to speak to you about a news item today saying that from the first of February, Australian same sex couples will be able to apply for a certificate of no impediment, if they wish to go overseas to wed.
What’s a certificate of no impediment?
NICOLA ROXON: What this means is some countries who do - some countries actually, in terms of all marriages, will ask the home country, if people wishing to marry, whether there’s any impediment to their marriage. So they might ask the home country, in this case Australia, if this person is married to someone else, are they over eighteen? Is there any other impediment to their marriage?
Up until now, we haven’t, as a country, provided those certificates, if it was a same sex couple asking for that certificate. From the first of February, we will do that. That means if a same sex couple want to get married overseas and there’s no other impediments, they'll be able to get that certificate in the same way that heterosexual couples will be able to.
ADAM SPENCER: Our number’s one, three hundred, triple two, seven, zero, two. Do you think it’s appropriate for our Government to give certificates of no impediment to same sex couples who wish to wed overseas? So up until now, if a couple of weeks ago, if myself and another man had applied to the Government and said, we want to go to Portugal and get married, what would the Government’s response have been?
NICOLA ROXON: Well, we wouldn’t have provided any sort of documentation, so of course, you need to understand, not all countries do this, but particular countries will ask, as a matter of course and they will ask for heterosexual couples as well, is there any reason that these people can’t get married in our country?
They might want to be satisfied that people are not close relations. Obviously, some countries have different rules for that. They want to know their age. They want to check that there isn’t a marriage to another person in a different country that they’re not aware of.
ADAM SPENCER: Okay, so if it…
NICOLA ROXON: We’ve just not provided anything to same sex couples and they've been left in that limbo. Now, we’re going to provide it, exactly on the same basis we do for heterosexual couples, still checking that there are no other impediments for the marriage.
ADAM SPENCER: After the first of February, if an Australian same sex couple gets one of these certificates, goes to Portugal, I’m just picking a random country listed in this article, gets married and comes back to Australia, are they married?
NICOLA ROXON: Well, they won’t automatically be recognised as married in Australia, because we don’t yet recognise or have same sex marriage in Australia. That’s something that will come before the Parliament in due course. But what it means is it will be one of a number of factors that gets taken into account by state or by the Commonwealth to see if they are living in a de facto relationship and that, obviously, will have an impact.
So it means people can have the celebration. It means people who might be marrying someone from that country can have an appropriate ceremony. They'll be married according to the laws of another country and that will, of course, be a significant factor that any state or the Commonwealth itself would take into account, if they’re looking at entitlements or benefits that depend on your married status.
ADAM SPENCER: If instead, if two Portuguese women who got married in Portugal come to Australia to live in there, but they’re still Portuguese citizens. They’re just residents in Australia, are they married?
NICOLA ROXON: The same rules would apply. Of course, it’s not necessarily likely to be as significant for a visiting couple, because usually, the things that will affect your status significantly are whether or not particular benefits will be paid, whether you’ll be recognised as married for all sorts of other laws and we’ve removed that discrimination in Australia through eighty four, eighty five different pieces of legislation.
ADAM SPENCER: But it…
NICOLA ROXON: So for visitors from another country, it’s less likely to be as relevant.
ADAM SPENCER: But as a legal nicety, is that couple married, when they’re in Australia?
NICOLA ROXON: No. The same rules apply. We only can cover the - our residents and laws that affect our country, people who are living here. My understanding is that it would be, of course, the same situation. We don’t need to make a pronouncement on whether we regard somebody as married or not when they come and visit our country.
That’s the difference, of course. If people were living here, if our laws are applying to them for particular benefits that are being paid or for our - I’m trying to think of, you know, wills or other things that might be relevant.
ADAM SPENCER: Yes.
NICOLA ROXON: Those sorts of laws don’t obviously have any particular impact for a visitor to our country.
ADAM SPENCER: But…
NICOLA ROXON: So we would treat them as a couple. There would be a factor if they were a same sex couple that’s married, if we were called upon to make an assessment of whether Australia regarded them as married, then you know, it would be likely, of course, that that would be taken into account to find that they were in a de facto relationship.
ADAM SPENCER: But there are - there are…
NICOLA ROXON: Australia gives them the same rights.
ADAM SPENCER: But there are two sides to this, Minister. There is the - for that couple, a foreign Australian couple in Australia who have gone over to Spain and taken part in a marriage ceremony, it is comforting for them to know in Australia that their superannuation is not affected by the fact that they’re a same sex couple.
But it’s also insulting for them to know that the Australian Government won’t acknowledge that they’re married. That they’re - that they’re not married in Australia. Why would we let them go overseas, why would we provide them with documentation to facilitate a ceremony that we don’t acknowledge?
If the Australian Government’s position is still that marriage is a union between a man and a woman, why would we sanction another government’s right to allow people to marry?
NICOLA ROXON: Well, you might look at it in that way, but you might also look at it in a different way, which is what the government does, which is that we have removed in all sorts of other pieces of legislation barriers for people who are in same sex couples that are discriminatory. We are not, by this step, recognising, in any official way, the marriage.
What we’re doing is providing a certificate, in the same way we do for heterosexual couples, to say that there’s no legal reason that provides another impediment to people being married and then, the laws of another country will apply. So same sex couples have been very insulted that they get from their Government a certificate which says they’re not married to anybody else.
You know, it’s a pretty basic thing and that prevents them from benefiting from the laws of another country. So it’s a removal of discrimination, rather than the next step, which our Australian Parliament hasn’t yet dealt with, which would be whether we would indeed allow same sex marriages here in Australia. And of course, there’s very different views amongst people of goodwill within the Parliament and elsewhere and that will be, no doubt, a very focused argument, when it comes before the Parliament.
ADAM SPENCER: Have you decided which way you’re going to vote when that legislation comes before the Parliament, Attorney-General?
NICOLA ROXON: Yes, I’ve been public. I said I will vote for that change, but of course, people know that within the Labor Party, we’re allowing a conscience vote, which means, people even in leadership positions, will vote differently within our party. We want Mr Abbott to do the same thing, so that there is a genuine vote within the Parliament reflecting the views of the members of the Parliament, representing their communities, whether or not same sex marriage should be allowed in Australia.
ADAM SPENCER: Just quickly, have you received a report back yet from the AFP over yesterday’s incident in Canberra?
NICOLA ROXON: Yes. As the Attorney-General, I get notifications of incidents like that and I have received a brief report. Obviously, it was not a pleasant incident and I must say, I am not a fan of any type of violence and intimidation, whether it’s for a mother who’s at home or someone on the train or the Prime Minister or Leader of the Opposition doing their job. This was not. It was a very unfortunate situation.
ADAM SPENCER: Yes, probably a further review to go in, but on the face of what you’ve seen so far, are you happy with the way the AFP handled it? I’ve had - I’ve had consistent contact from people this morning saying they thought the AFP went into overdrive and were all getting very excited and were a little bit heavy-handed in the way they dealt with the Prime Minister and the Opposition leader, given that there were a host of media around the car taking photos who, you know, felt particularly concerned for their safety. Is there any chance the AFP overreacted?
NICOLA ROXON: I don’t think so. I think the AFP does a fantastic job. I think it’s a very difficult situation when you’re responsible for somebody’s personal protection. I think everybody knows that things can get out of hand quickly. I think sometimes just looking at a little few seconds of television coverage doesn’t actually give you the whole environment, which is what the police are trained to make assessments for. So I am absolutely confident that they did the best possible job that they could.
Police always review what happens operationally. They, no doubt, will now go back and say, were there things that could have been done differently? Are there different options? But I am absolutely confident that they've done the best they can. And I know that the Prime Minister is very appreciate of the support the give her, you know, every day. It’s not an easy job and situations can get out of hand quickly.
ADAM SPENCER: Nicola Roxon, Federal Attorney-General. Thanks for your time.
- ENDS -
For all media enquiries, please contact the Attorney-General’s Office on 0409 945 476
THE HON NICOLA ROXON MP
Attorney-General
TOPICS: Certificates of no impediment for same-sex couples; same-sex marriage conscience vote; AFP protection of Prime Minister and Mr Abbott
ADAM SPENCER: If only I had the Federal Attorney-General I’d ask these questions of. Well, I do, because she’s on the line for a separate issue, but we will also get to talking about yesterday’s incident. The Federal Attorney General is Nicola Roxon and she joins us now. Thanks a lot for your time, Attorney-General.
NICOLA ROXON: Good morning.
ADAM SPENCER: I actually want to speak to you about a news item today saying that from the first of February, Australian same sex couples will be able to apply for a certificate of no impediment, if they wish to go overseas to wed.
What’s a certificate of no impediment?
NICOLA ROXON: What this means is some countries who do - some countries actually, in terms of all marriages, will ask the home country, if people wishing to marry, whether there’s any impediment to their marriage. So they might ask the home country, in this case Australia, if this person is married to someone else, are they over eighteen? Is there any other impediment to their marriage?
Up until now, we haven’t, as a country, provided those certificates, if it was a same sex couple asking for that certificate. From the first of February, we will do that. That means if a same sex couple want to get married overseas and there’s no other impediments, they'll be able to get that certificate in the same way that heterosexual couples will be able to.
ADAM SPENCER: Our number’s one, three hundred, triple two, seven, zero, two. Do you think it’s appropriate for our Government to give certificates of no impediment to same sex couples who wish to wed overseas? So up until now, if a couple of weeks ago, if myself and another man had applied to the Government and said, we want to go to Portugal and get married, what would the Government’s response have been?
NICOLA ROXON: Well, we wouldn’t have provided any sort of documentation, so of course, you need to understand, not all countries do this, but particular countries will ask, as a matter of course and they will ask for heterosexual couples as well, is there any reason that these people can’t get married in our country?
They might want to be satisfied that people are not close relations. Obviously, some countries have different rules for that. They want to know their age. They want to check that there isn’t a marriage to another person in a different country that they’re not aware of.
ADAM SPENCER: Okay, so if it…
NICOLA ROXON: We’ve just not provided anything to same sex couples and they've been left in that limbo. Now, we’re going to provide it, exactly on the same basis we do for heterosexual couples, still checking that there are no other impediments for the marriage.
ADAM SPENCER: After the first of February, if an Australian same sex couple gets one of these certificates, goes to Portugal, I’m just picking a random country listed in this article, gets married and comes back to Australia, are they married?
NICOLA ROXON: Well, they won’t automatically be recognised as married in Australia, because we don’t yet recognise or have same sex marriage in Australia. That’s something that will come before the Parliament in due course. But what it means is it will be one of a number of factors that gets taken into account by state or by the Commonwealth to see if they are living in a de facto relationship and that, obviously, will have an impact.
So it means people can have the celebration. It means people who might be marrying someone from that country can have an appropriate ceremony. They'll be married according to the laws of another country and that will, of course, be a significant factor that any state or the Commonwealth itself would take into account, if they’re looking at entitlements or benefits that depend on your married status.
ADAM SPENCER: If instead, if two Portuguese women who got married in Portugal come to Australia to live in there, but they’re still Portuguese citizens. They’re just residents in Australia, are they married?
NICOLA ROXON: The same rules would apply. Of course, it’s not necessarily likely to be as significant for a visiting couple, because usually, the things that will affect your status significantly are whether or not particular benefits will be paid, whether you’ll be recognised as married for all sorts of other laws and we’ve removed that discrimination in Australia through eighty four, eighty five different pieces of legislation.
ADAM SPENCER: But it…
NICOLA ROXON: So for visitors from another country, it’s less likely to be as relevant.
ADAM SPENCER: But as a legal nicety, is that couple married, when they’re in Australia?
NICOLA ROXON: No. The same rules apply. We only can cover the - our residents and laws that affect our country, people who are living here. My understanding is that it would be, of course, the same situation. We don’t need to make a pronouncement on whether we regard somebody as married or not when they come and visit our country.
That’s the difference, of course. If people were living here, if our laws are applying to them for particular benefits that are being paid or for our - I’m trying to think of, you know, wills or other things that might be relevant.
ADAM SPENCER: Yes.
NICOLA ROXON: Those sorts of laws don’t obviously have any particular impact for a visitor to our country.
ADAM SPENCER: But…
NICOLA ROXON: So we would treat them as a couple. There would be a factor if they were a same sex couple that’s married, if we were called upon to make an assessment of whether Australia regarded them as married, then you know, it would be likely, of course, that that would be taken into account to find that they were in a de facto relationship.
ADAM SPENCER: But there are - there are…
NICOLA ROXON: Australia gives them the same rights.
ADAM SPENCER: But there are two sides to this, Minister. There is the - for that couple, a foreign Australian couple in Australia who have gone over to Spain and taken part in a marriage ceremony, it is comforting for them to know in Australia that their superannuation is not affected by the fact that they’re a same sex couple.
But it’s also insulting for them to know that the Australian Government won’t acknowledge that they’re married. That they’re - that they’re not married in Australia. Why would we let them go overseas, why would we provide them with documentation to facilitate a ceremony that we don’t acknowledge?
If the Australian Government’s position is still that marriage is a union between a man and a woman, why would we sanction another government’s right to allow people to marry?
NICOLA ROXON: Well, you might look at it in that way, but you might also look at it in a different way, which is what the government does, which is that we have removed in all sorts of other pieces of legislation barriers for people who are in same sex couples that are discriminatory. We are not, by this step, recognising, in any official way, the marriage.
What we’re doing is providing a certificate, in the same way we do for heterosexual couples, to say that there’s no legal reason that provides another impediment to people being married and then, the laws of another country will apply. So same sex couples have been very insulted that they get from their Government a certificate which says they’re not married to anybody else.
You know, it’s a pretty basic thing and that prevents them from benefiting from the laws of another country. So it’s a removal of discrimination, rather than the next step, which our Australian Parliament hasn’t yet dealt with, which would be whether we would indeed allow same sex marriages here in Australia. And of course, there’s very different views amongst people of goodwill within the Parliament and elsewhere and that will be, no doubt, a very focused argument, when it comes before the Parliament.
ADAM SPENCER: Have you decided which way you’re going to vote when that legislation comes before the Parliament, Attorney-General?
NICOLA ROXON: Yes, I’ve been public. I said I will vote for that change, but of course, people know that within the Labor Party, we’re allowing a conscience vote, which means, people even in leadership positions, will vote differently within our party. We want Mr Abbott to do the same thing, so that there is a genuine vote within the Parliament reflecting the views of the members of the Parliament, representing their communities, whether or not same sex marriage should be allowed in Australia.
ADAM SPENCER: Just quickly, have you received a report back yet from the AFP over yesterday’s incident in Canberra?
NICOLA ROXON: Yes. As the Attorney-General, I get notifications of incidents like that and I have received a brief report. Obviously, it was not a pleasant incident and I must say, I am not a fan of any type of violence and intimidation, whether it’s for a mother who’s at home or someone on the train or the Prime Minister or Leader of the Opposition doing their job. This was not. It was a very unfortunate situation.
ADAM SPENCER: Yes, probably a further review to go in, but on the face of what you’ve seen so far, are you happy with the way the AFP handled it? I’ve had - I’ve had consistent contact from people this morning saying they thought the AFP went into overdrive and were all getting very excited and were a little bit heavy-handed in the way they dealt with the Prime Minister and the Opposition leader, given that there were a host of media around the car taking photos who, you know, felt particularly concerned for their safety. Is there any chance the AFP overreacted?
NICOLA ROXON: I don’t think so. I think the AFP does a fantastic job. I think it’s a very difficult situation when you’re responsible for somebody’s personal protection. I think everybody knows that things can get out of hand quickly. I think sometimes just looking at a little few seconds of television coverage doesn’t actually give you the whole environment, which is what the police are trained to make assessments for. So I am absolutely confident that they did the best possible job that they could.
Police always review what happens operationally. They, no doubt, will now go back and say, were there things that could have been done differently? Are there different options? But I am absolutely confident that they've done the best they can. And I know that the Prime Minister is very appreciate of the support the give her, you know, every day. It’s not an easy job and situations can get out of hand quickly.
ADAM SPENCER: Nicola Roxon, Federal Attorney-General. Thanks for your time.
- ENDS -
For all media enquiries, please contact the Attorney-General’s Office on 0409 945 476